king cobra

[AK-49]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDRTOsSSqqs

[ncboman]

Good grief.

What was that guy's name that use to be on tv all the time, fearlessly showin us what he could do with dangerous critters? :rolleyes:

ncboman

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

"I know to other people that's crazy, to actually put my hand on his head......"

I think he was going for "Understatement of the Year" with that remark! I'm glad there are places in the world that King Cobras can live and be themselves, I'm glad it's not here.

Alan

[GF.]

What was that guy's name that use to be on tv all the time, fearlessly showin us what he could do with dangerous critters? :rolleyes:


You mean the dead one?:rolleyes:

[Cindi]

I have heard that the older a snake is, the less venomous he is. I don't know if it's true or not.

[Greywolf]

I have heard that the older a snake is, the less venomous he is. I don't know if it's true or not.

we're talkin snakes, right?:o

[Altjaeger]

I have heard that the older a snake is, the less venomous he is. I don't know if it's true or not.

The bigger/older they are the less concentrated the venom is. That is more than offset by the increased amount (dosage) of venom they can produce. Hence their toxity increases with size.

[ncboman]

hmmm, without lookin anything up, I was taught a little snake is just as poisonous as a big snake but a big snake has a lot more of it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/Aug04098.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/Aug04091.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Decals/d2b16e2b33d602114f64e99958e9389cad8.gif

ncboman

[Greywolf]

what NC said.
But then again, I don't live in Snake Country

[AK-49]

less toxic or more toxic, but dead is dead if you get injected and aren't one of the lucky ones.

[Altjaeger]

less toxic or more toxic, but dead is dead if you get injected and aren't one of the lucky ones.

There are about 8,000 venomous snake bites a year in the United States with an average of 12 deaths, mostly elderly and toddlers. Though more painful I am not sure they are any deadlier than the humble honey bee.

[AK-49]

There are about 8,000 venomous snake bites a year in the United States with an average of 12 deaths, mostly elderly and toddlers. Though more painful I am not sure they are an deadlier than the humble honey bee.

I can assure you that a snake bit from a venomous snake is far deadlier than a sting from a honey bee. I used to run honey bee hives and getting 20 or more stings during a day wasnt uncommon.

12:8000 I doubt that the ratio of those surviving king cobra bites would be that optimistic. I was aquainted with a guy who was bitten by a cottonmouth... half of the muscle mass on the arm that was bitten was gone. Nothing I'd want to happen

[Altjaeger]

hmmm, without lookin anything up, I was taught a little snake is just as poisonous as a big snake but a big snake has a lot more of it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/Aug04098.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/Aug04091.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Decals/d2b16e2b33d602114f64e99958e9389cad8.gif

ncboman
You and Graywolf done gone and done it!:)

When I typed that I was repeating what I have read over the years in various outdoor rags. Now I had to research it.

NC State-Gaston says, "In some snake species young snakes have a higher proportion of neurotoxins in their venom than older indivduals. New reseach has found that the toxicity of venom varies greatly between individual snakes, both young and old".

Other articles offer a pot pouri of information such as:

-Concentrations vary by age, temperatures and season.

-Snakes control the amount they inject with 25%-40% of defensive strikes being dry bites with little or no venom released.

-Young, inexperienced snakes are more likely to strike and more likely to inject venom.

-There is a myth that young snake's venom is more concentrated with no research to back it.

So I would have to say the answer is unclear. The main lesson seems to be respect all ages and do not think that a yung snake is safer than an older one.

The actual answer is as clear as muddy water!:D

[Altjaeger]

12:8000 I doubt that the ratio of those surviving king cobra bites would be that optimistic. I was aquainted with a guy who was bitten by a cottonmouth... half of the muscle mass on the arm that was bitten was gone. Nothing I'd want to happen

I specified in the United States. I have not seen too many king cobras running around Texas. Are they common in Alaska?

The numbers I gave are the ones I found while researching the question of venom concentrations. You are welcome to research it as well. If you provide varying data with reliable sources then I will re-research and provide sources as well. Until then I will stand on those numbers.

[ncboman]

I've been bite by poisonous snakes several times. One time a copperhead bit me and the snake died. :D

ncboman

[AK-49]

I specified in the United States. I have not seen too many king cobras running around Texas. Are they common in Alaska?

The numbers I gave are the ones I found while researching the question of venom concentrations. You are welcome to research it as well. If you provide varying data with reliable sources then I will re-research and provide sources as well. Until then I will stand on those numbers.

Even if you are standing on those numbers I don't see how you could think that a poisonous snake bit was no more deadly than a sting from a honey bee.

[Altjaeger]

I can assure you that a snake bit from a venomous snake is far deadlier than a sting from a honey bee. I used to run honey bee hives and getting 20 or more stings during a day wasnt uncommon.

Where as snake venom affects all members of the general population the reaction to bee venom is highly individualitic. Again you made me go look it up,

About 4 people in every thousand have a serious systemic reaction to bee stings that creates a legitimate fear of death. Also because you do not have a reaction to a bee sting today is no guarantee for tomorrow as many different reasons can cause these reactions.

About 40 people (compared to 12 snake bite deaths) a year in the United States die of bee stings. Most are men in their 70s and 80s.

I have known two men in my life time to be killed by bee stings. One was in his 60s and one in his 70s. Both were out working and sweaty in the hot summer heat of high 90s.

I also had a classmate's father killed by lightening when in elementary school..

[Altjaeger]

I've been bite by poisonous snakes several times. One time a copperhead bit me and the snake died. :D

ncboman

My Grandmother was bit by a copperhead while picking blackberrys. She soaked it in coal oil and survived!:D

While doing all this reading I learned that copperhead bites are typical observed but untreated by medical personal. There is a high percentage of the population highly allergic to the horse serum anti-venom. Unless necessary to prevent death or severe damage it is considered better to let the snake bite run its course.

Years ago the Houston Zoo herpetologist was a man named John Whirler who wrote many articles for the outdoor magazines in the 1960s. The first time he was bit he almost died of an allergic reaction to the anti-venom. After that he foreswore the shos. Bitten a number of times later he eventually developed an immunity to the hemotoxic snakes.

[Altjaeger]

Even if you are standing on those numbers I don't see how you could think that a poisonous snake bit was no more deadly than a sting from a honey bee.

I said I was "not sure" meaning I do not know and have no strong belief or answer. Only that it is a possibility. As to why I think it is a possibility read my post above.

[AK-49]

Where as snake venom affects all members of the general population the reaction to bee venom is highly individualitic. Again you made me go look it up,

About 4 people in every thousand have a serious systemic reaction to bee stings that creates a legitimate fear of death. Also because you do not have a reaction to a bee sting today is no guarantee for tomorrow as many different reasons can cause these reactions.

About 40 people (compared to 12 snake bite deaths) a year in the United States die of bee stings. Most are men in their 70s and 80s.

I have known two men in my life time to be killed by bee stings. One was in his 60s and one in his 70s. Both were out working and sweaty in the hot summer heat of high 90s.

I also had a classmate's father killed by lightening when in elementary school..

4 in 1000 have a life threatening reaction to a bee sting... I can accept that...

that ratio would be probable 1:1 for those receiving a bite from a poisonous snake, if a poisonous snake bite isn't treated then you are most likely dead.

Just curious how you come up with a snake bite being no more deadly than a sting from a honey bee?

[Altjaeger]

4 in 1000 have a life threatening reaction to a bee sting... I can accept that...

that ratio would be probable 1:1 for those receiving a bite from a poisonous snake, if a poisonous snake bite isn't treated then you are most likely dead.

Just curious how you come up with a snake bite being no more deadly than a sting from a honey bee?

With the bees most deaths occur within a short period before medical treatment can even be started. That is why people who know they are highly allergic to bees often carry benedryl or another antihystimine. Unless a snake hits an artery spreading the hemotoxin directly to the organs (brain, lungs, heart, etc.) in minutes medical treatment is almost always possibe with U.S. snake bites. The numbers 40 vs 12 deaths speak for themselves.

And again I said, "I am not sure that...".

[Altjaeger]

Boy, we sure filled a page quickly this morning!:)

I am not being nasty argumentive but consider this more a chat on a very slow messenger or lacking coffee cups and a diner's counter.. Good discussion. :)

[AK-49]

LOL, comparing the numbers of bee stings to poisonous snake bits you will find that serious injury or death is higher among snake bit victims...

my only concern here is why you continue to use statistics to support an argument that is without merit..

[Greywolf]

fellas....fellas.

i can tell you I would rather deal with a single snake than a bunch of insect.
besides, i know I'm allergic to the stinging sort, but have dealt with poisonous snakes with out getting to upset.
(I did live in snake country for a while.:D)

[AK-49]

i will take my chances with insects... you guys can have the snakes

[Altjaeger]

LOL, comparing the numbers of bee stings to poisonous snake bits you will find that serious injury or death is higher among snake bit victims...

my only concern here is why you continue to use statistics to support an argument that is without merit..

I am raising a possibility with numbers to support that it may be possible. You are providing blanket and totally unsupported denials of that possibilty. I am using the best numbvers available to me. You are responding with your visceral reaction, but no measurable facts.

There is many ways to measure. Do you measure only those bit, stung, or struck by lightening and died; or do you measure by numbers exposed, but never bit, stung eaten or struck by lightening?

If you consider that .0015% of snake bites are fatal, but that .004% stinging victims are likely to have a life threatening reaction to bee stings then the possibility is not extreme. We do not know the number of bee stings against which to measure as we do in snake bites. We also do not know how many of the severally "allergic" bee sting victims actually die when stung. But we do know that .004% is almost three times as much as .0015%.

If you measure on personal observation I know two men dead of bee stings. You and I both know snake bite victims who survived.

My question to you is why you argue against a possibility stating it is without merit when you do not attempt to support that belief?

By the way between 1959-1994 the U.S. averaged 93 deaths and 280 injuries a year from lightening strikes making it undoubtedly the most dangerous of outdoor hazard of the three. The survival rate is not good either.

[AK-49]

I am raising a possibility with numbers to support that it may be possible. You are providing blanket and totally unsupported denials of that possibilty. I am using the best numbvers available to me. You are responding with your visceral reaction, but no measurable facts.

There is many ways to measure. Do you measure only those bit, stung, or struck by lightening and died; or do you measure by numbers exposed, but never bit, stung eaten or struck by lightening?

If you consider that .0015% of snake bites are fatal, but that .004% stinging victims are likely to have a life threatening reaction to bee stings then the possibility is not extreme. We do not know the number of bee stings against which to measure as we do in snake bites. We also do not know how many of the severally "allergic" bee sting victims actually die when stung. But we do know that .004% is almost three times as much as .0015%.

If you measure on personal observation I know two men dead of bee stings. You and I both know snake bite victims who survived.

My question to you is why you argue against a possibility stating it is without merit when you do not attempt to support that belief?

By the way between 1959-1994 the U.S. averaged 93 deaths and 280 injuries a year from lightening strikes making it undoubtedly the most dangerous of outdoor hazard of the three. The survival rate is not good either.

I would agree that suvival rates from getting hit by lightening is very poor...

What i am stating is that surival rates for those bitten by poisonous snakes is lower than those stung by honey bees and the like and also that long term injury rates are greater from poisonous snake bites as compared to bee stings... fatal for poisonous snake bite 12/8000 or .15% .......fatal for bee sting? you stated .004% (does anyone know)... not sure if your math was correct on the bee sting since your math was off by a factor of 100 on the snake bit stat

I would expect more people die from insect stings than from poisonous snake bite but only due to the higher frequency of those getting stung.

If I am wrong about this then I'd like to see some evidence that I am incorrect... or is my math screwed up too LOL

[StringJumper]

This is a timely post. A neighbor of mine was bitten on the big toe by a copperhead last week. On the sidewalk in our neighborhood no less. Roughly 9-10 houses away from mine. It was dark and he was wearing flip-flops.

I spoke with his wife and found out that he nearly became one of those "two people per year" that are said to die from copperhead bites. He was in intensive care for three days and in the hospital for a week. Believe what you want but I think despite the statistics that copperheads are deadly snakes.

The real shame is that other people had seen the snake but declined to dispose of him. The "he's not bothering me so I won't bother him" syndrome. Well he did bother someone and our neighbor Bill is that someone.

I am sorry fellas, this one will get me slammed but I NEVER let a poisonous snake crawl away. Never. And that will never change. How stupid would you feel if you let a rattler go and the next week you get hit in the leg while walking to your stand in the dark?

I know they keep the rats and vermin away but you know what? There is a place just 2 miles from my house where I can buy all the rat traps I can carry.

By the way...I think both Alt and AK-49 are right in their arguments. Alt is correct that many more people die from bee stings than snake bites. But that is because of the vast numbers of bee stings. And AK-49 is correct that on average a snake bite is much more deadly. If as many people got bitten by snakes as they are stung by bees, the deaths by snake bite would be staggering.

[Altjaeger]

Ah, but AK you MAY very well be right if you count deaths among only those stung or bit. If measured against those exposed but unbit or not stung then MAYBE not.

But the point is that you have nothing to site that it is NOT a possibility. You are reactng intuitevly and that CAN BE very wrong. Of course it MAY NOT be wrong at all.

I made a statement of POSSIBILTIES that you have argued as impossible without providing data to say why your assertation is correct, only an unsubstantiated opinion..

[Altjaeger]

What i am stating is that surival rates for those bitten by poisonous snakes is lower than those stung by honey bees and the like and also that long term injury rates are greater from poisonous snake bites as compared to bee stings... fatal for poisonous snake bite 12/8000 or .15% .......fatal for bee sting? you stated .004% (does anyone know)... not sure if your math was correct on the bee sting since your math was off by a factor of 100 on the snake bit stat


I stand corrected on the percentage. They are both different. They should be .4% and .15% so the ratio remains the same, almost 3 to 1. :D

I did not say .4% of bee victims died, rather that number faced potentially fatal reactions. We do not know the percentage of those facing such reactions actually die. Again I have never asserted anything but possibilities. You have argued it is impossible without showing why.

[Altjaeger]

I am sorry fellas, this one will get me slammed but I NEVER let a poisonous snake crawl away. Never. And that will never change. How stupid would you feel if you let a rattler go and the next week you get hit in the leg while walking to your stand in the dark?


I will always kill poisonous snakes around homes and camps except where legally protected. In the woods I am likely to simply walk around them these days. When prohibited from killing them I have relocated rattlesnakes miles from homes.

[AK-49]

I stand corrected on the percentage. They are both different. They should be .4% and .15% so the ratio remains the same, almost 3 to 1. :D

I did not say .4% of bee victims died, rather that number faced potentially fatal reactions. We do not know the percentage of those facing such reactions actually die. Again I have never asserted anything but possibilities. You have argued it is impossible without showing why.

I can assure you that .4% of the people stung by bees don't die or have a near fatal experience... you need to research your facts...

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/92306Pungo011r.jpg
dueling copperheads

According to my biologist friend with mucho snake experience, moving or relocating a rattlesnake is almost a sure death sentence. They are creatures very sensitive to their home environment.

web page (http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-news/Vol-28/cbn-0109/Relocation.html)

ncboman

[Bill Gunn]

Snakes...

Mortality/Morbidity
A 20-year review of data from the National Vital Statistics Systems identified 97 fatalities. The state of Texas had the most fatalities (17), followed by Florida (14), and Georgia (12).



•Deaths secondary to snake bites are rare. With the proper use of antivenin, they are becoming rarer still. The national average has been less than 4 deaths per year for the last several years.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168828-overview

Bees and wasps...

Mortality/Morbidity
•Large local reactions occur in 17-56% of those stung. In one study, 1-2% experienced a generalized reaction, and 5% sought medical care.
•In 1989, 32 deaths were reported from fire ant stings in Texas, Florida, Louisiana, and Georgia.1
•Wasps and bees cause 30-120 deaths yearly in the United States.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/768764-overview

[ncboman]

snakebites


Approximately 4000-7000 bites are reported to national centers each year. North Carolina has the highest frequency, with 19 bites per 100,000 persons. The national average is approximately 4 bites per 100,000 persons.


web page (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168828-overview)

ncboman

[Altjaeger]

I can assure you that .4% of the people stung by bees don't die or have a near fatal experience... you need to research your facts...

No, I have provided enough figures to provide a POSSIBILITY which is what you deny. It is YOUR turn to research and disprove that there is any possibility before you deny one. That has been the whole point of the last two pages.:D

[Altjaeger]

I can assure you that .4% of the people stung by bees don't die or have a near fatal experience... you need to research your facts...

I agree with that .4% do not die, but do you know for sure that 1 in 3 do not die? If so then they are near equal. Go research and bring back data if you wish to prove that it is NOT A POSSIBILITY that bees are as deadly as U.S. snakes. Until then it remains a POSSIBILITY.

If we accept Bill Gunn's numbers my source greatly exagerated the death rate of snake bites by 150% to 300%. His figures show .06-.1% as the death rate, not 1.5%

In the meantime my source on bee fatalities was very conservative at 40 vs. 30-120 from Bill's source. In the end his data supports even more strongly my statement of POSSIBILITY.

My original statement was a statement of possibilty, not fact. You have insisted it is not even a possibility and have presented nothing to to support that statement of impossibility.

[Altjaeger]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Snakes/92306Pungo011r.jpg
dueling copperheads

According to my biologist friend with mucho snake experience, moving or relocating a rattlesnake is almost a sure death sentence. They are creatures very sensitive to their home environment.

web page (http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-news/Vol-28/cbn-0109/Relocation.html)

ncboman

When company policy or state law require relocation...

However, I would say most relocations I have made have been 1.5-3 miles so they would qualify as short distance relocations with the higher survival rate.

[ncboman]

more ...


20-year review of data from the National Vital Statistics Systems identified 97 fatalities. The state of Texas had the most fatalities (17), followed by Florida (14), and Georgia (12).



A review of morbidity associated with snakebites from Kentucky was published. Most bites were from copperheads and resulted in 8 days of pain, 11 days of extremity edema, and 14 days of missed work.1 A review specifically of copperhead bites in West Virginia described similar outcomes and noted that the peak effects of envenomation were not present until over 4 hours from the bite.


Race
White males account for 76% of the victims.

Sex
National studies report a 9:1 male-to-female ratio.
UTMCK studies report a 2.1:1 male-to-female ratio.

Age

National studies report 50% of patients were aged 18-28 years. UTMCK studies report 25% were aged 18-28 years, with a mean of 29.5 years.
National studies report 95% of bites were located on an extremity, especially the hand. UTMCK studies report 96% of bites were located on an extremity, 56% to the hand.

National studies report a seasonal occurrence of 90% from April to October.

UTMCK studies report 100% occurrence from April to October (May: 1 bite out of 25 cases; June to August: 19 bites out of 25 cases; and September to October: 5 bites out of 25 cases).



Causes

In the United States, more than 40% of victims put themselves in danger by either handling pets or attempting to capture reptiles in the wild. The popularity of keeping exotic species has increased the number of envenomations by nonnative species.

UTMCK data support this by reporting that 15 of 25 patients were bitten handling snakes; 2 of these were involved in religious ceremonies.


web page (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168828-overview)

ncboman

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Every poisonous snake I ever relocated died.

Alan

[Altjaeger]

Every poisonous snake I ever relocated died.

Alan

I bet those transplants were unworldly, are at least other worldly. :D

[GF.]

The real shame is that other people had seen the snake but declined to dispose of him. The "he's not bothering me so I won't bother him" syndrome. Well he did bother someone and our neighbor Bill is that someone.

I am sorry fellas, this one will get me slammed but I NEVER let a poisonous snake crawl away. Never. And that will never change. How stupid would you feel if you let a rattler go and the next week you get hit in the leg while walking to your stand in the dark?


I'm more live-and-let-live than you, I suppose; a snake - out where snakes belong - has very little to fear from me (and maybe it's different in warmer areas, but I don't see much chance of getting nailed on my way into a stand in the morning, even in September). But even my older brother - the groovy Artiste living and teaching Art out in L.A. - he used to shoot rattlers around the house when he was living the Groovy Life out there in the desert in New Mexico. Got a 5 1/2 foot diamondback from under the propane tank one night when it buzzed at him as he headed out to the one-holer. We still have that sucker tacked to a board :cool:

Around the house - around kids or dogs too young, inexperienced, or just plain stupid to leave 'em alone - the snake's gotta go.

And if NC's buddy is correct (which I expect he is), there's no sense taking any chance of getting bit in an attempt to relocate a snake which is most likely going to die as a result of the operation, is there? :confused:

Besides - it's not as if they're an endangered species, and frankly, if I had a nice pair of matched skins like NC's copperheads, I'm sure I could find somebody to lay 'em onto the back of a nice recurve for me:cool::cool::cool:

[Greywolf]

GF,
Don't know much about your area, but if you know someone in the are of Glastonbury, north east of you, they may be able to help you out with a pair, or rattlers.
Seems that that is one big denning area, and the rattlers are constantly on the lawns or laying up a ways in the shrubs in a couple of the neighborhoods there.

[postoak]

Pretty amazing, but I saw a bit better one. I think it was on the Jeff Corwin show. He catches snakes but, for the king cobra, he used "local talent". It looked like maybe a biologist who lived in the country involved (Malaysia?). They approached a king cobra even larger than this one and the biologist approached it, held his hand out at the head for about 10 seconds and then reached out and grabbed it from above. That is my favorite snake catching episode!

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I usually put the bead right under the head for about 1 second and then they become a very safe snake. SJ, don't feel bad, I kill every one I can. This arrangement has been in place for a while. They will strike my heel and I will strike their head. I leave the non-poisonous ones alone but Rattlers, Cottonmouths, Copperheads, and Coral Snakes are not welcome.

Alan

[StringJumper]

You guys can argue the statistics if you like but here is what I believe:

I usually get stung by a bee, wasp, yellow jacket or hornet at least once or twice a year.
If I got snakebit at least once or twice a year I doubt I would be typing this.
I don't have statistics to back this up but I would bet almost everyone who lives a normal length life gets stung by a bee at least once in their life, and probably several times.
And if everyone got snakebit at least once in their life then I have to believe that the number of fatalities would be pretty darn high compared to bee stings.


I don't argue that bees can be deadly to a certain percentage of people. I have heard of several people who had allergic reactions but never witnessed one. But I guess my point is that maybe somewhere between 5% and 20% of people have a abnormal or potentially deadly reaction to bee stings, however 100% of people have a adverse reaction to snakebites.

[Altjaeger]

however 100% of people have a adverse reaction to snakebites.

Depending on whose figures you accept 25-40% of venomous snake bite victims DO NOT have adverse reactions due to "dry bites". :)

In my mind the discussion is not about whether bees or snakes are more lethal. It is about speaking in absolutes as opposed to possibilities. We could just as easily be discussing the odds of a particular poker hand winning with me saying it might and AK saying it would be impossible. In the meantime are looking at 4 hands, but the 5th players hand is unknown to us.

I made a statement that bees were possibly more deadly than snakes in an offhand comment. AK responded that it was not possible. I went and researched data to show a possibility, not a fact. I believe I have provided enough data to show it a possibility, but not enough to prove it as fact due to unknown factors. He has insisted that it is impossible.

At this point I have challenged him to provide data to prove his stance that the possiblity does no exist with something more than his intuitive opinion. Unspoken is that if he cannot then the possibility exists. That does not make it fact.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I used to keep bees. Getting stung was part of an average day and a near certainty while working hives. I never had an adverse reaction. the stings were most always on my arms or hands and were the result of crushing a bee or otherwise alarming it. A knife blade or the hive tool to s****e the stinger out and it was no biggy. I never went to slapping at them and the rest of the hive always remained calm.

Then one day. I was removing a super and for whatever reason the hive lifted about an inch and dropped back onto the bricks it was sitting on. 80,000 bees began trying to sting me in earnest. Some significant number succeeded before I got away from them. I spent a good while hold up in the barn s****ing stingers and waiting for the hovering cloud to go back to making honey. Still no adverse reaction.

Then one day I got stung again. Routine sting on the forearm. Within two minutes my forearm was as swollen as it could be without ripping the skin. I beat it back to the house and fortunately my young wife knew what benadryl was. I took two and the swelling went down throughout the afternoon. That was about 28 or 29 years ago and every honey bee sting has been the same since. Now I have some benadryl close at hand. If I were to get stung on the neck and did not have benadryl handy I believe I would be in bad shape.

I carry an extractor in my truck and it works great if I can get to it within a minute or two of being stung. It pulls a tiny drop of venom out right away and the effects aren't nearly as bad. It would probably work good on snakebites too.

I'm not going to research it at all, but I will say that I rarely hear of someone dying of snakebite although the results of not dying could be debatable for two weeks following the bite. I do hear quite often (several times per year) of people being either stung to death by bees or dying due to the allergic reaction from being stung. This is just a casual observation on my part. Nearly all (if not all) the bees in our area are Africanized and will attack with very little provocation. Tractors and lawn mowers seem to be most provoking to them. Again, a casual and personal observation.

Given my druthers I'll take bees and snakes over grizzly bears any day though!

Alan

[AK-49]

Depending on whose figures you accept 25-40% of venomous snake bite victims DO NOT have adverse reactions due to "dry bites". :)

In my mind the discussion is not about whether bees or snakes are more lethal. It is about speaking in absolutes as opposed to possibilities. We could just as easily be discussing the odds of a particular poker hand winning with me saying it might and AK saying it would be impossible. In the meantime are looking at 4 hands, but the 5th players hand is unknown to us.

I made a statement that bees were possibly more deadly than snakes in an offhand comment. AK responded that it was not possible. I went and researched data to show a possibility, not a fact. I believe I have provided enough data to show it a possibility, but not enough to prove it as fact due to unknown factors. He has insisted that it is impossible.

At this point I have challenged him to provide data to prove his stance that the possiblity does no exist with something more than his intuitive opinion. Unspoken is that if he cannot then the possibility exists. That does not make it fact.

Geeze... LMAO... I would wager that in most cases (for the vast majority of poeple) that a bite from a poisonous snake is far more lethal and injurous than the sting from a honey bee... I don't think that you will find any credible evidence to prove other wise.

I have intentionally allowed bees to sting me for a few various scientific experiments... I would never intentionally allow a poisonous snake to bite me.

What exactly is your hypothesis or do you have one? Or do you prefer to ramble in circles?

[Altjaeger]

I don't think that you will find any credible evidence to prove otherwise.


You apparently cannot read or have not read what is there. My statement was about a possibility, not a fact. That is all that I have ever stated. Further there is sufficient data provided to introduce a possibility, but not prove a fact.

You flatly state it is an impossibity and provide nothing but opinion (we all know about opinions). Until you can disprove the possibility with facts it exists.

To reduce it to a single sentence if it is impossible that bees are more deadly than the american pit vipers prove it.

[ncboman]

:)


Stings by bees, wasps, and hornets are common throughout the United States. Some ants also sting. The average person can safely tolerate 10 stings for each pound of body weight. This means that the average adult could withstand more than 1,000 stings, whereas 500 stings could kill a child.


In the United States, 3 or 4 times more people die from bee stings than from snakebites.

A more aggressive type of honeybee, called the Africanized killer bee, has reached the southern and some southwestern states from South America. By attacking their victim in swarms, these bees cause a more severe reaction than do other bees.

In the South, particularly in the Gulf region, fire ants sting up to 40% of the people who live in infested areas each year, causing at least 30 deaths.



web page (http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec24/ch298/ch298g.html)

ncboman

[Altjaeger]

If I got snakebit at least once or twice a year I doubt I would be typing this.


Far more likely is that you would be like John Whirler and a number of other herpetologist with a number of bites. Bitten that often you would likely to have developed a resistance such as to be virtually immune to the hemotoxins.

I am sure the vaccination process though is quiet rough in the early dosages!! :D

[ncboman]

Snake bite pictures

http://www.venomoussnakes.net/snake-bite-pictures.htm

ncboman

[Altjaeger]

No doubt NC the bites can be very nasty with even the best medical facilities.

That bottom picture reminds me of a missionary's report from the amazon years ago. A native Indian was bit by a large pit viper, fer-de-lance I believe. The tribe immediately built a large fire and held the limb in it until burned off.

In doing so they amputated the poisoned limb and cauterized it closed.

More humorously was the American doctor on safari some15-20 years ago that had a spitting cobra hit him in the eyes. While staggering blindly one of the trackers threw him to the ground and proceeded to empty his bladder into the doctors face. When released the Doctor came up swinging ineffectually until he realized the native had been flushing his eyes with the only liquid immediately available. Urine from healthy kidneys is sterile, if offensive.

[Hi Ball]

Those who play with venomous snakes, sooner or later end up biten and that is very painfull to say the least. I am certainly glad we don't have those types of poisous snakes around my area.

[Altjaeger]

To me the scariest of the U.S. snakes is the mojave rattler. Virtually indistinguishable from the western diamondback (coontail) which have neurotoxins mixed with hemotoxins. People have been bit by them, observed in the hospital a few hours and sent home only to die from sudden respiratory arrest.

[GF.]

While staggering blindly one of the trackers threw him to the ground and proceeded to empty his bladder into the doctors face. When released the Doctor came up swinging ineffectually until he realized the native had been flushing his eyes with the only liquid immediately available. Urine from healthy kidneys is sterile, if offensive.

Not only a good way to flush dirt out of any type of wound, but the ammonia/urea in urine is effective in neutralizing a lot of kinds of bites & stings, such as those from jellyfish & other assorted sea creatures. YOu mau be familiar with a product called 'Afterbite' - it's like a felt-tipped pen that you use to swab mosquito bites, bee stings, etc. Active ingredient is ammonia.

Smeels like it, too, but most peoiple are happier being swabbed with a household cleaner than being peed on. :D

But depending how bad the sting is, I think for want of one I'd take the other ;)

[Hi Ball]

I figure that I am in the same boat with ALAN!!! It seems as though all those venomous snakes that I have relocated, just passed on over to the happy hunting ground for snakes.:D

[Altjaeger]

I figure that I am in the same boat with ALAN!!! It seems as though all those venomous snakes that I have relocated, just passed on over to the happy hunting ground for snakes.:D

I have only relocated when dictated by law or company policy. I was always uncomfortable until the job was finished.

Wherever an option it was done over a shotgun bead, the chopping blade of a how or similar instruments. On the other hand rat snakes and such have been transported home the the wood pile.